Sticking it to SONY
Check out this guy, Joel Tenenbaum.
Sony is pissed off about file sharing and takes it out on one guy.
These are the decisions of the brilliant minds in their legal department.
At least they didn't drag him to California, like they are doing with class representative Huber in the OtherOS lawsuit.
Check out the sketchy legal tactics used by big content.
For some reason I think if Apple ever sued me they'd be fair.
Sony is pissed off about file sharing and takes it out on one guy.
These are the decisions of the brilliant minds in their legal department.
At least they didn't drag him to California, like they are doing with class representative Huber in the OtherOS lawsuit.
Check out the sketchy legal tactics used by big content.
For some reason I think if Apple ever sued me they'd be fair.
posted by George Hotz at
1:53 AM
82 Comments:
What can I say, people disgust me. People are just greedy, corrupted money hunters.
I have no issues with greed and money hunting.
I do have issues with stupidity and FUD
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The guy broke copyright law and got stung for it, it can and does happen.
Are you for piracy Hotz? If some one was distributing copies of a game made by an Indy-developer, causing them to go bust... and that person got sued for damages, would you be against it?
It's exactly the same thing.
We're with you in France, don't give up ! I'm Boycotting Sony Products, like some of my friends...
@Aaron No, I am not for piracy as I have stated many times. And it is a problem that needs to be addressed.
But as of recently I have no respect for these companies who complain about it so much, and employ these awful and unproductive tactics to combat it. It's as stupid as the DMCA.
My favorite example of stupidity is COICA, which allows the US government to remove DNS entries of "evil" websites. That's the quickest way I've ever seen to remove the last bit of control the US does have over the internet and decentralize the DNS system.
Note to the government, if you /really/ want to fight the problem, put up a "Great Firewall" I mean China does it, and they are a leader in civil liberties...
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Piracy is a problem, and it needs to be solved in a more proper way...
@George Hotz I know I mean seriously the DMCA doesn't address DRM issues it's just used a cover by mega coporations to protect against hacking
Seriously laws like the DMCA don't exist in China, cause its PATHETIC
@Aaron And this guy isn't some baron of copyright infringement, he is a dude who downloaded 30 songs, hardly a bankruptable offense.
If they want to bring a suit against LimeWire, go for it. But again, stupid on the face, right after the injunction is issued a new version pops up(LimeWire Pirate Edition)
The solution is not litigation against people who cannot fix the problem.
Because frankly, the problem is an idea(well, or the internet).
The right solution is viewing pirates as competitors.
Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Music_Model
I'd happily pay $10 per month for that service.
@George Hotz, Fair enough, but I've seen enough to suggest these sort of tactics work though... People have been scared off of using p2p services here in the UK due to a few people being made an example of in court (such as Joel Tenenbaum). Some ISPs here now send out legal letters, it's scaremongering and it works.
When you're a cooperation, you need to make noise and show the shareholders you're doing the right thing to protect their assets. Sony done the same thing with you, while you think it's damaged their PR within the hacking world... I'm sure game developers and shareholders are looking at it completely differently.
I'm not saying they're right I'm just trying to have a pragmatic approach, they've taken a very much a archaic approach to this whole thing and it's unfortunate you've been used to make an example of, but understandable as you made the most noise.
@ThePirateKid The DMCA only works against suckers like me who post stuff using their real name, cause they don't think they are doing anything wrong.
China is laughing their ass off at the US's attempt to push ACTA on them. The way the US pushes their copyright laws on most countries is by threating trade sanctions. Good luck doing that with China, the US would be chopping off it's own foot.
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@Aaron Well I can't comment on what Sony did to me, but if you have to scaremonger your customers into buying your product, you are doing something wrong. Sure it may work for a little while, but eventually a sharing technology will come along that the law will be powerless to trace. While they build up legal arsenals, we build up code arsenals. Things like TOR and DHT torrents own DMCA and ACTA any day.
I wish they'd see the trend and not force scapegoats to suffer in the mean time.
From a salon piece in early 2000, "We're working on getting this coded before they see us coming. Once the code works they'll never be able to take it away from us."
Being anonymous has its problems too especially if you get caught... Then your considered a master hacker who's a criminal and mega companies will use all that negative attention towards the hacker to their advantage.
As for China well done for resisting Americas attempt to push ACTA on them that's true "Freedom of Speech"
I feel that companies like Sony sue out of habit, They've been taught to sue just like a dog that was never potty trained. Maybe we should all march on sonys office and get" injured" and make Sony pay for medical and compensation;)
That's another loop hole in us law that's as stupid as DMCA
@ThePirateKid I'm not the kind of guy who would be anonymous, I take too much pride in what I do and I wasn't raised that way. But if you are reasonably careful, it's fairly easy to be impossible to catch. That's why the real "cyber" criminals get away almost all the time. And these companies will paint you in a horribly negative light no matter what you do.
@George Hotz, It's completely right to say that scaremongering doesn't work... at least with tech savvy people, I actually think it works well for the wider audience. Though I think a lot of the time these court cases are less about being productive and more about showing the people with money (the shareholders), that the company is doing something. It's all a never ending facade at the end of the day... but the facade keeps it from boiling over, we all know piracy will never be stopped.
It is very true but you got to figure that having pride in what you do, can have consequences in the eyes of the law... you know that now I guess.
Also mega companies tends to manipulate the grey areas of the law and even thought they are grey areas they deem them as illegal WTF?
@Aaron Ah, but the fallacy is the people they reach with news of these lawsuits. Tech savvy people and the shareholders. Frankly if I were an intelligent shareholder and saw this sort of crap, I'd get my money out ASAP. For example, I'd be pulling my money out of Oracle right now for the stupid Android lawsuit. Those that can't innovate litigate.
If I wanted to invest in the future of music, I'd invest in Apple. I can't wait until some big name artists ditch the RIAA.
@ThePirateKid All I'm aware of is that having pride in what you do can get some butthurt assholes pissed at you who then waste your time.
"I AM ABOVE THE LAW" -- Angry Record Producer Dude on South Park
@Aaron the fight against piracy is like fighting drugs, everyone knows drugs will come into the country. But the us spends billions to stop it, even if they taxed weed, that would pay for drug control on stronger substances. The problem is That people are judged based on a 72 year old politician's (who's got a stick up his ass) idea of what's right and wrong.
The fight against piracy is like fighting friction(I would say gravity but we went to the moon;))
Theres nothing you can do
But politicians, CEOs and shareholders still believe that can fight the unwritten law of the Internet
@evvilmonkey I've made the drugs analogy before and I believe criminalizing users(or paraphernalia, the drug DMCA) is a stupid way to fight the problem. Sadly, the US doesn't agree with me. What you really have to look at is why people are turning to drugs in the first place.
I don't know what's dirtier sony's legal department or flux pavilions newest single;)
Sorry I had to bring a dubstep joke into this to lighten the mood
@George Hotz there's a lot of reasons for the drugs use, I think it's mostly the weak willed who need something to hold on to,
But nonetheless it's there and it's not going away
I mean why do people pirate?
Why do people dink with copyrighted software?
It's these questions that the politicians need to learn
The drugs analogy works but both situations suffer from the same issues.
Say you focus on the root of the problem, you neglect the smaller issues and they escalate into a snowball and become one massive problem. However bullshit the methods have been and are, they work to form some pathetic amount of order... but order none the less.
In both cases (drugs, piracy), the key I would argue is education... everyone has to be honest with each other over the effects, risks and benefits. However I don't see Sony, the guys from Pirate Bay and a selection of politicians & general public sitting down and thrashing this out any time soon.
@Aaron I personally would love a nice sit down meeting with everyone. So much could get resolved.
It's terrifying when Joe Biden is talking shit like this
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110413/12094013882/joe-biden-theres-no-reason-to-treat-intellectual-property-any-different-than-tangible-property.shtml
@Aaron you got a point there, I mean where exactly would we start to get the general public, politicians and corporations to redesign the entire system? A lot of people feel the system is fine when its got a ton of cracks in it.
Media? Start a boycott? A protest?
I feel that these are great solutions but extremely hard to start
@George Hotz basically what I gathered from that site is that ideas are being stolen constantly(in joe bidens eyes)
The automotive vehicle would still be that tiny piece of shit wagon with a tiny motor if general motors didn't build their car line
We would be flying gliders instead of Boeing 787s
And no one would have came up with the BLT
The whole idea of open source is to share
@George Hotz, 'An hour with Geohotz'... pitch it as an idea, I'm sure there would be some network willing to take it up. Being in the UK I've never heard of this Joe Biden guy, but I was laughing my ass off reading that article. I hope he isn't reflective to the general attitude over their in the States, though looking at the Oracle case you pointed out earlier it seems so.
@evvilmonkey, It's hard to get a start with anything really, if you have a liberal government then these things stand more of a chance though to be honest. Boycotts are limited in their effectiveness when the problem is so wide spread. If there are better alternatives these need to be pitched with strong evidence to the relevant companies and governments.
@Aaron This Joe Biden guy happens to be the Vice President of the US...
hahahahhahahahaha
@Aaron
I live in Utah and because of the mormons here it's a republican state.
"An hour with geohot" would be a great program, maybe NBC or fox will fund it;)
If I ever have the opportunity to speak with the governor I'll make sure I'll till him what's really going on between corporations and consumer
Hey I have to ask, how big is dub step in the UK?
I'm thinking about producing with my friends:D
Going off topic but dub step has become massive in the UK, which is both good and bad... everyone with a basic laptop and a YouTube account thinks they're a dub step DJ when in reality they're terrible.
Any way I'm at the end of an all-nighter, good discussion all, goodluck Hotz ;)
Good luck geohot! I'm hitting the sac also it's 2:00 am here and I have to clean house tomorrow and learn how the he'll to operate fruity loops(don't worry I paid for it;))
Night guys
Hey, George.
What you say if you did somekind of a video podcast, explaining things how you view em? I'd help to spread the news here in Russia. Probably someone would even translate it and post, so the educational effect on the common folk would be greater.
A radio show (or just sticking to the blog) is probably more realistic. I've been following this case and "reporting" on it via a show I co-host at Stevens, where George gave a seminar (is there a video up somewhere of that by the way?)
As to the piracy issue:
http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/05/Saving-a-penny----pirating-the-Humble-Indie-Bundle
As it says there, Steam has shown me I'm not cheap, just lazy. Pretty much extend that as "to beat piracy, I must be more convenient than piracy" - also preferable: more trustworthy etc. (see: rootkit or other invasive drm, the stuff you don't have to deal with if you pirate something)
It bugs me the most that using pirated software is more secure nowadays. It's like using pirated videos, because there is no commercial crap and DMCA notices
George, please use more unbiased sites, it would greatly aid your position, because so far all I have seen is blatant anger without logic or rationality.
Piracy is not like drugs, for that is not a case of theft, piracy is. The struggle against piracy is more like buying/taking items from a store and redistributing them freely or at a lower cost. A better analogy to the drug trade would be like selling a book that is banned in the country that it is banned in, which a situation as such could probably be found in China.
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This what some people are saying about you, they are slandering you since months...
http://www.angolodifarenz.it/2011/04/15/approfondendo-il-culo-di-holtz/comment-page-1/#comment-135251
Sony and George Hotz settle in PS3 hacking case..... = ="
So you gave up....loser??
@George Hotz here's a couple of relevent quotes
"The United States is a nation of laws: badly written and randomly enforced" Frank Zappa
"Laws alone cannot secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must spirit of tolerance within the entire population" Albert Einstein
Didn't La Toya Jackson claim that Michael Jackson told her that Sony BMG wanted to kill him for his music a few days before he was overdosed to death?
"Possession isn't nine-tenths of the law. Its nine-tenths of its problems" John Lennon
SONY and its possession of "intellectual property" it nine-tenths of the problem
You can only go after one person at a time with these cases, just like you pursued only one company George. Please realize that these corporations are just trying to make examples so others will think twice when they consider pirating, hacking, etc. Taking on everyone at one time would be long and time consuming, so they stay small, unlike your effort which starts off in a pretty large scale with such insignificant levels of support.
@Icestar Sony is in third place because they put the least effort towards the mainstream audience, and more towards the core. Also, they were more expensive at the beginning, and really, just plainly, otherOS and Linux has absolutely no precedence on why they have sold the fewest consoles in comparison to the Wii and Xbox 360.
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@Lucas - Well we could launch a mass lawsuit against multiple(this is bigger than just Sony) companies(not likely as it would be hard to get the defendants attached under one charge as there is no statutes that really help the consumer in this instance in the US at least), but it IS easier to get a favorable judgement against just one. Too bad that isn't the case the other way around. Just look at the mass P2P lawsuits, which IMHO should have to be filed individually unless the users were working in concert(I.E. Sharing the same files) and therefore related, not based on the jurisdiction the defendants reside in(but the lawsuit(s) should take place in the defendants home jurisdiction).
@Icestar The bulk of their major games (TBH I cannot think of any) do not require either Move or 3D, they are just additional options, and with so much space on a blu-ray, why not give more options? Also, I have a 3DS, and I can no longer play games without 3d without feeling like I missing depth in the game, so I now think that 3D is the future, and the Move was just to beat out the Wii. (Though, I do not like Kinect, the new computer systems that you can control with your minds alone make me very interested in what future gaming can become without controllers).
So far this generation, I have seen primarily "hardcore" games, which are direct contradictions to where the money is at, the casual audience. They rely on their third party's to make those titles, no PS Play or PS Music having the primary funding from Sony. (Sports Champions as exception, but that was more of a tech demo, especially the sword combat aspect)
@Lucas - Wii is winning due to "softcore" mainstream games(I played Wii Bowling w/others in ages ranging from 4yrs to 83yrs, now things like that have mass appeal).
the future is open source hardware. Wired has a great cover article this month on http://adafruit.com
i.e. the future is not in the fun of 'consuming', or of mindlessly pushing buttons to make an bar go up. the future is in the fun of creation, sharing, and building things, together.
I like turtles.
Notes on Graf's situation: (IANAL, nor do I understand German and this if from a translated copy of the legal documents he posted)
English(Translated by Google Translate:
"The above two lawyers are obliged to facts, the course of the self-evidentiary proceedings to their attention and get in the private sector or any business of the defendant's concern, to keep secret, even to the applicant and its employees."
Original German text:
"Die beiden vorgenannten Rechtsanwälte werden verpflichtet, Tatsachen, die im Zuge des selbstständigen Beweisverfahrens zu ihrer Kenntnis gelangen und den Privatbereich oder einen eventuellen Geschäftsbetrieb des Antragsgegners betreffen, geheim zu halten, und zwar auch gegenüber der Antragstellerin und deren Mitarbeitern."
To me this means at the very least, only the courts have his stuff not Sony(:D). His stuff was confiscated via the TRO(which I guess is legal in Germany), but held by the courts pending the case(assumingly, returned if decided in his favor). He is being fined for breaking the TRO(not his original actions, but the upload after the raid), but I don't know that his lawyer(s) have responded yet. There is a lot less available due to location than there was in Geo's case.
Again, I know nothing about German law and this is a common sense inference of a German document translated by an auto translator which may or may not be wrong as even a single mistranslated word could make the whole thing mean something different by law.
Links to translated docs and originals:
In English:
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http://openjur.de/u/86561.html
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http://openjur.de/u/86443.html
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http://openjur.de/u/91993.html
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http://openjur.de/u/91994.html
Originals:
http://openjur.de/u/86561.html
http://openjur.de/u/86443.html
http://openjur.de/u/91993.html
http://openjur.de/u/91994.html
@Kreationz The Wii winning from softcore titles while Sony focuses on hardcore titles and losing is what I meant, though I consider the softer titles to be more mainstream from higher volumes of sales. Though I do admit, my logic within that is shaky.
And yes, the lawsuit was purely for the upload as that translation shows, the earlier seizure was more so reactionary,though SCEE is different from SCEA, so there maybe a worldwide directive from SCEI that we are not aware of to grab any possible threats.
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@decora - a good example of open source hardware becoming a reality is in the reprap project. http://reprap.org/wiki/Main_Page
@geohot - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterculture - I do believe the "file sharing" piracy problem of today can accurately be described as counterculture. I fully agree that it won't slow down without there being an appealing legal method of file sharing that takes the steam out of piracy. The mass scale of music piracy should be telling the RIAA that they need to embrace and take advantage of the technology instead of suing. Provide a legal means to have the same convenience. Wait, apple did just that. Looks like they won.
"You can only go after one person at a time with these cases, just like you pursued only one company George."
They pursued George, George never pursued them. Actually, they did pursue multiple parties -- did you miss the part where there were multiple defendants?
"Please realize that these corporations are just trying to make examples so others will think twice when they consider pirating, hacking, etc. Taking on everyone at one time would be long and time consuming, so they stay small, unlike your effort which starts off in a pretty large scale with such insignificant levels of support."
See above. Although, what the *hell* is your problem with people trying to make more of what they have via hacking? It should be noted that hacking is the only way to get alternative software onto the PS3. That's actually both frightening and infuriating; all contracts give the parties involved the ability to reject the terms of the contract and not be covered, but the PS3 is gimmicked in such a way that, without hacking, you cannot disagree to the terms of the contract and have a usable device at the same time. If you install your own software to the device -- circumventing Sony's cryptography protections, which they also "happen to" use for 'copy protection' -- you are apparently in violation of the copyright of the software for rejecting the terms and substituting your own(!!!!!!). That's not misappropriation, that's scribbling everything out and putting something completely different in. Substituting the contents of a physical conveyance of intellectual property is an intellectual property violation?! Really, you agree with this?!?
I'm sorry, but that shouldn't be allowed to stand. You should not be forced to agree to a contract to make use of a physical hardware device that you have purchased and that has come into your full possession. Especially considering that same hardware device is obviously fully capable of operation without Sony's software.
"@Icestar Sony is in third place because they put the least effort towards the mainstream audience, and more towards the core. Also, they were more expensive at the beginning, and really, just plainly, otherOS and Linux has absolutely no precedence on why they have sold the fewest consoles in comparison to the Wii and Xbox 360."
Also their exorbitant pricing, don't forget their exorbitant pricing (which turns the restrictions on the hacking into an even greater insult to the consumer!).
Clarification: in my last post, where it reads:
"you are apparently in violation of the copyright of the software for rejecting the terms and substituting your own(!!!!!!)."
It should read:
"you are apparently in violation of the copyright of the software for rejecting the terms *of the contract* and substituting your own *software*(!!!!!!)."
Maybe as a community something like this page http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/ should be used as a model for the release of future keys. - Any decent programmer could put that into action.
Ok, Sony is obviously retarded. I get that. They confuse piracy with jailbreaking. Understandable. But WHAT THE HELL are they doing suing hackers who have never been associated with piracy. The boycott is a great choice, but we need to take it farther. To many people are unaware any of this is even going down. We have to get this all over the internet, magazines, books, and on tv. We need to make this go BIG
Guys! Jailbreaking is awesome and all and I agree with Hotz. It's just about the people that ABUSE it. Most people jailbreak (iphones/iPod touches) just for the sake of pirated apps and they think that's the point of it. While Devs are working hours into finding new exploits to jailbreak those certain firmwares. This is not just with jailbreaking but also with PSP hacking, Nintendo DS hacking, etc.. I found that allot people hack their stuff just for the sake for pirated software rather than running Linux. I respect the device hacking community but I absolutely hate the pirating community. Geohot you might not think that your stuff is involved in piracy and it's not but the problem is the people that downloaded your software for the sake of piracy. I'm not saying your bad, in fact I respect you. The core of the piracy problem is the people that abuse free/open source software.
And THOSE people should be sued. Also, the industry needs to change it's business model some and they can reduce(some people are truly just thieves) the problem. Why should a digital copy of a game cost the same as a physical copy. No manual, no disc, now box, etc.. This lowers costs to to just development, royalties, and bandwidth(for the downloads). If app stores can have $1-$3 average app prices, and even XBL can have games under 10$ (some only ~$1 on XLIG) then why can't there be a shift. I understand the production costs associated with development and publishers wanting royalties, etc... but even a digital version of a AAA title could be sold at $30 instead of $60 due to the reduction in production costs of that format. The world is going digital and companies are starting to get the message, but we are no where near there yet. I have another idea to fix the problem if any gaming company wants to put their money where their mouth is to fix this... but corporations don't tend to listen to our voices until we make them loud enough by voting with our wallet. I am participating in the Sony boycott to help make our voice, just a bit louder(See Dr. Guess's: Horton Hears a Who). Every last voice counts!
Great going keep it up..we are with you..
www.techsangv.com
Nintendo is the only console manufacturer that I don't hate with all of my guts right now.
How awesome would it be if their next gen console appealed to hardcore gamers as well as (or, dare I say it, instead of) casual gamers? They have the chance to scoop up a lot of Sony ex-fanboys right now :)
Just a random comment from my rambling mind.
sony is disgust me
Check our blog at
max-michaels.blogspot.com
@Isaac356 - Rumor is it is planned for the usual low(by comparison) Nintendo price point, but will be more powerful than either PS3 or 360... so they might have listened and be trying to get the "hardcore" fans back.
I can't wait to see what Nintendo will announce! :D Nintendo never disappoints! :)
@Icestar, I give you WiiMusic and WiiPlay, what was that about Nintendo never disappoints?
@Lucas- Sorry I was not clear. What I mean, is that the reliability and customer support of Nintendo never disappoints. lol I was not referring about the games. Yeah, the Wii has been disappointing lately, in fact, I find this whole generation disappointing. Last gen was better in my opinion. This gen, all people freaking play is Freaking Call Of Duty and first person shooters.
Although all consoles has their good games, I still personally believe last gen was better.
"For some reason I think if Apple ever sued me they'd be fair."
You're young, yet, George. You'll get over your default trust in sexily branded corporations, soon enough. I say this as someone who spent his 20s rather enamoured of Apple. Every ethical line I thought they wouldn't cross, they crossed. The idea that a modern corporation with shareholders has ANY ethical boundaries is pure bunk. Watch the documentary 'The Corporation' if you need any more convincing.
geo hot will always be my favourite
screw sony although i have ps3 but sony and thier game developers are criminal they should be sue for charging so much
SONY SUE ME OR TAKE MY IP ADDRESS BUT STILL GEOHOT I NEED UR HELP
I HAD PS3 WORKING ON MULTIMAN AND I PLAYED A FIFA 12 CD IN IT AS A RESULT IT GOT RESET OR UPGRADE TO 3.70 ANY HELP OR TRICKS TO PLAY GAMES ON HDD
OR HOW TO GET IT BACK ON PREVIOUS FORM
MY EMAIL ID : MOIN.KHAN@INDIA.COM
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